Wing Chun Network

(message) Boards don’t hit back?

Well that answers the question of who crofts was talking about, also welcome to the site

Do a search for a guy called Corbuzier Deddy,Grandmaster Sam Kwok may have or is planning to go to Idonesia to pass on his knowledge to Corbuzier….

Sifu kwok has been out there this year teaching Deddy, but I think he is still learning so I dont know if he has a kwoon (the Chinese word for Dojo) set up yet. Either way their wont be a very high standard there yet but maybe soon. Just go try classes out :-)

nice video but i see both of them need more technique in their boxing punches

sory mean more skill

you sound like a true pro Rafeal , this isnt boxing this is a 50 second knockout in a mix martial arts competition, i would like to see one of your fights please if possible , thanks for your feedback

Thanks for the upload Dan

no im not a pro but i know how to box i was only giving my opinion and when i get a camara i will upload any of my fights :D

I think the dude in that video must have an awesome wing chun teacher, what do you reckon Dan? lol

I’m not sure if there was some confusion but that fight wasn’t western boxing, some people refer to wing chun as Chinese boxing? but that was a sanshou fight,(free fight i think it translates) like a mixed martial arts comp with certain rules like no elbows, no knees, with boxing gloves so some wing chun elements can not be used like lap sau … all opinions should be perceived as constructive in my opinion & I think everyone down to yip man always had room for improvement … to ever claim your great or the best or know everything about anything creates an immediate block for your learning 8-)

thats true Shell sorry if i seem arrogant it wasnt my intention

If you judge people, you have no time to love them.” ― Mother Teresa …lol, It was more of a general statement, I didn’t form an opinion to be fair lol … I know that I always have room for improvement & believe everyone does, no matter of how much of a skilled martial artist they are, I think opinions are good, as I do questions, it’s how you learn 8-)

hey well done Craig – good win :) I find it frustrating trying to apply wing chun wearing boxing gloves and usually end up reverting back to my first style which is a form of korean kickboxing. are you allowed to wear the finger gloves like in Enter the Dragon? that would be cool !!

Thanks Kingsley , yer its a little frustrating using gloves and trying to controle your opponent, its a shame but you cant use any other gloves they must be boxing gloves, so that people dont grapple or try any joint locks

I also have to say " Nice Job!!

Lol I reckon Craig has a lousy instructor. Still it was a great KO.

Thanks Ira >_< ,
I agree with Shell awesome instructor lol an
thanks again Dan >_<

Omg how dare you speak about Dave like that Dan haha (joke) well I don’t think your lousy … And you just wanted to hear that because we all know you love yourself really lol ;-) lol :-P

wow strongest man in the world and best martial artist ever that’s a brave statement , I take it you met Bruce Lee then ? And have met every other martial artist ever ? Hmmm did you ever stop an think I wonder who taught Bruce Lee , in your statement your putting down Ipman , Wong Shun Lueng ,Jet Li and many other great martial artist , you might be in love with Bruce but what your saying is not a fact it’s an opinion ;-)

ok haha man remember this is not my video i only upload it bcz Bruce Lee is doing Wing Chun , Paz hermano

I do love Bruce Lee – but I’m not sure his wing chun was that great. I don’t think he even finished the system. However he was an awesome martial arts movie star and great fighter – mostly because of his amazing speed and power.

Beauty/Skill is in the eye of the beholder ;-)

http://www.wingchuncapetown.co.za/events (The webpage has been updated with all the information required)

Cool !

I would love to attend but money is low and I am headed to Afganistan next month :-(

Where are you staying?

Bagram AFB

in my opinion I’d say yes… I don’t see training with other lineages disloyal either, it will only improve your knowledge and skill level … I think it would be pretty out of order to say no lol, if you can practice using what you have learnt against or with any other art not just wing chun it will be beneficial for you and show you where your gaps are ;-)

Ira, I’m in the same boat as you. No one any near me studies the same linage and I’m pretty sure the only instructor in these parts knows very little (see my previous post!). The way I see it, as long as you’re practicing you will get better.

You should do what I do: practice with anyone you can and take everything they say with a grain of salt. If they try and correct you, make sure they can prove that their way is better than what you have been taught. If in doubt, come on here and post your question.

I also agree with ‘Shell’. It might seem incredibly disrespectful to not train with someone because of linage differences.

Thank you for your advice, I appreciate it very much! The main reason I ask this question is due to my research into wing chun. I have learned that even though many Sifu come from the same Ip Man linage there are many differences from Sifu to Sifu concerning technique and the reasoning behind it. I have a very open mind and can see merit behind all of it! I chose my Sifu based on direct linage as I want to learn Wing Chun as Ip Man taught it! I have found a small school who’s linage is Ip Man/Leung Ting. As it stands now I train on my own and as you all know you can only learn and do so much on your own. I need a training partner to advance my skills! My concern with a training partner from another linage is conflict of technique.

What the folks above said. Ps leung ting learned from Leung shun who learned from ip man. Anyway tran with everyone

taking skills and experience from as many practitioners as possible will improve anyone’s Kung Fu..

if you do start doing it, let us know how it goes, i love all that chi stuff, iam a hippy tho :)

I have tried a bit but I have an issue with the whole trying to empty my mind aspect, I think way more than I talk 8-O lol … I’ll let you know how it goes … appears no one else here has really done any of it, I have read up on it a bit, I’m still kinda split on it but if it’s not beneficial, I haven’t lost out on anything … whats the worst than can happen? 8-)

well done, what was the championship?

Hi sifu how are you?
It’s JKD Martial Art Championship and held at Mumbai-India.
and our group achieved 6-gold medal, 3-silver medal, and 2- bronze medal.

hey – nice pics :) congrats on the medals :)

Thanks

Well done!!

Thanks

Well done congrats :-)

well done boys

Aww I remember this guy – didn’t realize he passed away.

you should aim for your target ,& the head is usually the best target, the idea of throwing a punch that you think might get redirected is ridiculous . watch ANY professional fights from ANY martial art or sport & you wont find any that have such a stupid idea , also most people stand at a angle where you can barely see there sternum nevermind try to punch it. very very bad advice. i would leave that club, but when you do climb out of the window incase the doors blocked but if the window is blocked you might get rediected to the door. utter nonesense

to the less defended part of his body

gcrofts , trust your instincts , you started your post with the common sense of " Seems like a silly question but, I’ve always thought that the face/neck area is the best bet." this is correct , please dont fall for jedi mind tricks from people with no fighting experience , telling you how to fight. ….. Rafael Garcia if we follow that logic we should be aiming all our punches towards the back of the knees as this is prob the least defended area. nonesense….

I agree with cutpunch. Only an fool would redirect punches into their face. And if they are an fool you don’t really need advice on how to fight them. Neck, nose, eyes, jaw and groin are all great points to attack. Sternum isn’t bad as people struggle to cover it in muscle or fat so it hurts to get hit there but it’s always easy to protect, and lots or fighters will hit you in the face as you try to punch them low.

But don’t listen to any of us try it out against lots of people when sparing or doing Chi Sau and see what happens.

Out of curiosity who is your instructor?

& has he ever had a fight ?

well thats bcz you are not thinking in 4 dimention jaja

im going to repost the original question on other forums & facebook as this type of bull**** is why people laugh at wing chun as a relevent martial art ,i think its dangerous to have such bad imformation & more so people claiming to teach self defence & then teaching this nonesense are in my opinion obtaining money through fruad & deception as you will bw worse off because you may believe this rubbish & enter a confrontation with bad advice & less self defence capabilities than when you started. ill repost any comments it gets

haha why you get upset? " well thats bcz you are not thinking in 4 dimention" is a joke nothing more nothing less dont take the things to personal

Hi all, just wanted to say thanks for the advice. The guys name is David Stevens, apparently he learned wing chun from Alan Gibson who’s the founder of “The Wing Chun Federation”.

As for finding another instructor, that’s not possible. Where I’m living atm, there is only one club.

Given the responses, I’m inclined not to take this guy too seriously, but it’s either go to his lessons or practice alone…

let him teach you the system but you can evolve talking with other and practising wiht other ppl see videos read books about WC

your better off pratising alone , you are bound to pick up bad habits if you only ever train with people with bad habits, suggest private training with someone at the class you get on with , where do you live , there may be someone onhere that you could train with.

I’m living on the Isle of Wight atm. Pretty sure nobody on here is from this neck of the woods!

I have to agree with cutpunch and dan – punching towards the face is the best way of striking the face. I can’t see any logic in punching toward the sternum on the offchance that it will end up striking the face !!!

2nd that kings …

I know I am a beginner here but from what I have learned you should always chase center! If that leads to the face then so be it….. if that leads to the sternum or spine then that is fine too…. Reguardless of how you are facing your foe they will always have a center ;-) So, in a nut shell, when I am striking/aiming it is always center :-)

As with a lot of elements of wing chun the ability of people to misinterpret information is amazing. I read Gcrofts original post and can’t believe that a simple basic concept of the system has been so misunderstood.
The exercise referred to in the post is a simple structure test using taan and fook sau concepts to encourage the student to apply the fook sau correctly. The idea of aiming towards the throat/upper chest whilst training is to ensure that the elbow is kept lower than the wrist and unfortunately Mr Crofts has the habit of fully extending his arm when attacking lifting his elbow i.e. is hitting to high. More unfortunate given his height this means that his punch does not connect to body structure minimizing the power he can generate.
In very short terms, the fook sau shape has to be maintained in a particular angle in order for the structure to be supported by the body.
In case anyone wishes to test this you can use the starting position of Dan Chi Sau (single sticking hand exercise) and rather than initiate with the tan sau to ying jeung (upright palm strike), the fook sau should attempt to punch into the throat/chin area. In theory if you apply the right angle with your elbow down, you should hit the opponent (if needs be feel free to pivot to enhance the attack position).
Having done so being compliant, the person using taan sau should now apply lat sau jik chung and try to attack the face. Assuming the fook sau is correct and the elbow is below the wrist the taan sau attack should be deflected easily.
If not, you should find that person applying taan sau will lift the fook sau out of the centre and the fook sau attack will either miss or skim the target.
In Mr Crofts case, he misses the target.
This also similar to the exercise at the end of Dan Chi Sau where if the punch is wrong, there is no need to move into bong sau to deflect and you can simply punch to the face and clear the original attack out of the centreline.
I hope that the above is enough of an explanation to clarify the comments made, but if not I would encourage anyone to further the discussion. At this point, I have tried to keep this simple without too much reference to the forms, etc but I am happy to spend more time on this if necessary.
If anyone wishes to check my details, please google “The Wing Chun Federation” and check the instructors page. If this is not enough, please contact Alan Gibson, who is my sifu and can confirm my training, grading (done under David Peterson WSL lineage as Alan doesn’t tend to grade his own students), etc.
David Stevens.
PS @ Gcrofts, come back if you want and discuss this in person rather than online, but I am happy to bet that if we were to try the exercises above you would not be able to hit me with your punch.

it have info about alot of diferent wing chun linages tehcniques of eahc one weapons training devices etc is really cool

yeah its cool

If they’re true then why not. As long as you can prove the claim with a certificate for example then you should. You have to stand out from the rest of the sifus in order to promote your business. However, the question for me would be – Are you the one teaching, or am I being taught by someone taught by ‘one of 13 masters’?

People can and will make claims. It is up to you to research and see if the claim is true or false. I rarely take anyones word/claim for anything as gospel. People in general are prone to coating a load of crap with truth. The truth is out there ;-)

I agree with Ira … maybe it’s harder for some people who train with different lineages to track their history back etc … but personally … if I don’t see it .. I don’t believe it, I’m just kind of arrogant like that personally … with everything in life from ghosts to medicine … not just wc … like for instance Dan is my sifu …Sam Kwok is his … I’ve been on camps and trained with them both, Sifu Kwok is in china every year and there are pictures of him with ip mans sons? … safe to say he isn’t a liar lol … it’s there in black and white … I’m given the opportunity yearly to go over there myself … planning to next year 8-) …. but some people feel the need to lie … to get more students, rake in money … whatever the purpose … they end up just looking like idiots? …

like say for example, if I started teaching in a few years? … if I claimed to have learned from ip ching … it’s a lie … I have bent the truth loads … If I claimed to have learnt from sifu kwok … It’s a lie … I have been taught by Dan? yeah so I may have trained with them, but a 2 week holiday or a few seminars with sifu kwok is not where I have learned my foundations … bending the truth just makes me look like I lie … prob because I’m not a great teacher …

like the kids at school that name drop the popular kids lol … It’s a persona some people have, that is pretty pathetic in my opinion, but regardless of who’s from what lineage or taught by who? …

If you have an oz of common sense or individuality you can see what your being taught, and should be able to ask yourself … will it work? … is it logical? is it practical? and do I like this person and get with them? because you won’t learn if you don’t like your teacher … well I won’t … I was that kid at school that only bothered listening to people I liked? … that’s what I feel is important personally regardless of who taught them what …

I don’t think you have to name drop in that context to promote yourself if your a good teacher, to me shouting about it or making any false claims is an indication that your somewhat insecure about yourself … well that’s how I’d perceive it anyway? and for the record I have no idea who your referring to incase anyone decides to bite my head off after my opinion lol … I don’t half ramble lol

;-)

welcome to the site :)

thnks for the video Dan :)

No prob, it was made for my website to help students learn so felt I should share. If you have anything you want to see in further videos let me know. Also any feedback is appreciated.

in fact is very clear i have a little trouble hearing what you saying ( my english is still not perfect) but it help me out alot

awesome clip – very interesting !

Its a Dan Video, Cool!!

who is brock lesnar?

if you had typed “who is brock lesnar” into google you would know. silly

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Brock+lesNar

Also in answer to your question, as much as I love Ip Man I would put money on brock because he is OMG huge

hi dan , i think you are right , you can have all the structure & correct elbow positioning you want but if you run into someone motivated & skilled of that size . you are going to lose very quickly. im in london next week if you have any spare time lets meet up

cool :)

yeah its amazingly sunny here. Come say hi if your ever in London :)

hehe you had a little idea but they had no idea hahah !!! (that’s a joke based on translation of sil lim tao)

hahaha xD

hey Kings im having troubles when i click in Add Comment it doesnt let me to add a comment

now is working haha

hey – thats a great idea – I have a big list of thing planned – but not had any time to do them !! Maybe over christmas when if things are quiet in my life I will get some time to make some changes :)

Everything is wonderful !!

no rest for the wicked hey 8-) …sounds like the story of my life, mines just getting more hectic coming up towards xmas lol … happy to hear that your both keeping well … we are waiting for another one of your dance routine videos kings 8-)

maybe at christmas :) and if you are lucky I’ll wear my santa costume ;)

awesome lol 8-)

the dummy is pretty cool – I like how they switch the arms around in the holes !

i know ! ,im thinking on building one i only have to check where i can get the bamboo

i find out this dummy is a JUK JONG

I miss lunchtime Chi Sau with you Kings! ps did your tea arrive?

Nice one Kingsley. Put all your Portugal points into practise now my friend.

Hey Kingsley it was awesome chi-sao’ing with you too. :-) Life is too hectic to do enough chi-sao so we’ll need to make the most of the opportunities that we have.

hey dan im in london tomorrow are you free at all

Well for a short time I thought there was a slight lean to bring the hips out. You should actually keep your back straight to maintain the structure. Otherwise you will be offbalance. The stance of the legs naturally brings your hips out just a tad. I stand orrected if nay of that is wrong.

i agree, yet the black & white images of yip man show him clearly leaning backwards

The back is ‘straight’ but it’s the Dan Tien (pelvis rotated under to lose the tail part of the spine) that gives the illusion of you leaning back.

http://youtu.be/JbNETKezmns,at 12 seconds in his shoulders are behind his knees , im not trying to catch you out , but he is leaning back. my system comes from yip man but we dont lean back that s why i was asking

maybe is bcz he was old and sick about the cancer that he take that stance thats my opinion

you may be right rafael, i know some systems from yip man do lean backwards so im just trying to find out more about it ,as i say my system is from yip man but we dont so its interesting thatb other systems from the same lineage do

also are you suggesting that yip man aloowed himself to be filmed doing forms incorrectly? just asking

When Ip Man made the 8mm footage it was so he could preserve the Wing Chun that he has been teaching to his students. He had become aware that his students had begun to change things and this is why he wanted to put on film how his Wing Chun really was. A lot of his students began to make claims that Ip Man had taught them all the ‘real’ Wing Chun which is what they are teaching to thier students. As Rafael says, Ip Man was very poorly at this time so in my opinion he was bound to make mistakes, the footage taken was made when he was not at his best and therefore neither is his Wing Chun. Had Ip Man made this film when he was in his prime, there would be no uncertainty about the Wing Chun of Ip Man. Even though he was ill, you can still see the tremendous amount of energy Ip Man was able to generate by the Mook Jong part of his video. If you were to take this footage as the ‘exact way’ Wing Chun would be used then we would all be lifting our trouser legs up to do a side kick on the dummy, ;-/. In reply to cutpunch, your lineage is made up of three lineages in total, Ip Man’s being one of them but having rolled with Ged, the way you chi sau is not from the Ip Man lineage. I can’t comment on the other two lineages and their particular way of rolling This is not meant as a derogatory statement about your Wing Chun so please don’t take it that way.

hi sajeed , i take your comments as your observations & a valued ones at that,i am asking questions & they are being answered , im not one to take offence at such things. my sigung was taught the yip man system by Hawkins Cheung and the Yuen Kay-San system by Kwan Jong-Yuen but all i learnt was the Chu Sau Lei system so i wouldnt know where one starts & the other stops. question though how is he preserving a system when he is demonstrating it wrong ?

Firstly, Ip Man invented the system so he shouldn’t (wouldn’t) be doing it wrong. Secondly, and i think that this is a general consensus with wing chun students, Ip Man left it too late to show his system properly (with regards to his ill health.)I have studied the Ip Chun system in which I obtained my black sash and am now studying the Ip Man system and they are different! The forms are different and so is the mental concept of chi sau. All I have to go by though is the word of Sifu Samuel Kwok that he is teaching me the Ip Man System and his word I do not question. The best way to preserve anything is to pass it on and i beleive Ip Man has done this through his youngest son Ip Ching. One final point – I don’t think that everything is shown perfectly on any of the dvd’s out there. All they do is show a sample of what their system is and for those who have a true interest in it, it will inspire them to find a sifu. Enjoy your Wing Chun whichever lineage it comes from.

Ohh interesting convo so I will add my views (for what they are worth, which isn’t much).

- The Sil Lim Tao stance from my understanding and experience is to train your legs so they are stronger. So leaning back slightly will put more pressure on (not something you would do if you’re ill unless you are supposed to). If you look in the mirror from the side you may be surprised to see yourself leaning back in stance when you thought you were more or less straight.

- Ip Man did not invent Wing Chun he modified what he learned from 2 Wing Chun teachers into his own (in his words “simplified”) System.

- You should always question your Sifu/Instructor/Coach so you understand their thinking. It is the way to learn and improve. Ip Man is famous for saying “If you believe everything I say you will never be a good fighter.” I think this is not because he ever misled people but simply because there isn’t one correct answer you need to try things for yourself. Your answer is not the same as mine. This is one reason for the many variations in Ip Man Wing Chun. Man cared more about the end result than the journey. But he filmed himself doing the forms because the journey is important.

- There is only “Chi Sau” in my mind. Although it varies from system to system and linage to linage and person to person, those factors don’t matter. Effectiveness is all that matters.

hey dan great post, it seems yip man taught different systems to different people including his own sons ! maybe the leaning back version was one he taught someone else, ill health or not he is leaning back quite clearly, does anyone know if his sons get on with each other

Chan Wai Hon was one of Ip Man’s students and from what Sam Kwok has told me from speaking to him, Chan Wai Hon said, Ip Man taught the same thing to everyone but didn’t like repeating himself or spending time explaining more than once or twice. So the gifted and advanced students learned fast other students simply missed out or misinterpreted. Both Ip Mans son’s Wing Chun is pretty similar, but the way they use it is very different. Ip Chun is all about redirection and Ip Ching is more about power and cutting through at a slight angle. This is (in my opinion/guess) due to the difference in their size and weight. Having trained (very briefly) with both I can say although they are have a different style they both have a lot to offer Wing Chun wise. Ip Chun and Ip Ching are not close like you might expect of brothers living in the same city with the same sort of interests. However they are not enemies and what ever their personal view are they keep them to themselves.

If you look really close at the video of Ip Man doing Chum Kiu you’ll noticed a couple of things. The camera isn’t level, the room is sloping down to the level. You can’t see the whole of his feet/shoes very clearly. If you tilt your head and imagine bigger feet, you notice he doesn’t lean back that much. ;-)

Hey guys thanks for all your answers , I was hoping someone from a leaning back system would postbut hey what ever , I’m fasinated at the mystery by all this & the ever more elaberate reasons for what is in my own personal opinion “a man clearly & obviously leaning backwards” camera angles big feet poor health , jedi mind tricks, whatever.in brasilian jiu jitsu there is a family with 30 or more brothers & cousins that all get on called gracie, the estima brothers , the vieria brothers , the mendes brothers ect ect ect. Its all smoke & mirrors in wing chun because nobody fights each other. You can teach nonesense & never have to prove what you do works.

My opinion is that wing chun is less about how it looks and more about how it feels. You have to adapt wing chun to your body, shape and size and for this reason I think many teachers only teach what works for them. So in the case of Ip Man leaning backwards – maybe he was maybe he wasn’t – but that shouldn’t be taken as the one and only way – if you feel better leaning backwards then lean backwards if not don’t. Same goes for any other aspects of Wing Chun – change them to fit yourself and find out if they work through chi sao.

My Wing Chun is about my own personal self development which I practise out of love for the style and it’s benefits. Wing Chun is not suited to competition fighting since everything that makes it so effective causes a lot of damage. I also train in BJJ and I see many similarities in concept to Wing Chun – with one big difference – there is a way to fight competitively in BJJ without reducing the effectiveness. The closest Wing Chun has is gor sao but in reality the only way for someone to tell if they are a better fighter is to have a fight.

hi kingsley great post i agree completly about is about what works for you & its a very good point about teachers maybe teaching what works for them . but surly a set of rules could be put in place where by noone gets hurt , when tou chi sao in class people rarely get hurt so its only a matter of upping that level of control , nothing improves the level than competitions. on a side note i was at adcc this weekend marcello garcia was on another level to everyone else

Gary Lam is based in California – check out his site: http://www.garylamwingchun.com/

I think Gary Lam is the Steven Seagal of Wing Chun.I saw some footage of him on youtube and that’s what sprung to mind. lol.

think we had some exchanges on this earlier. Do find it noce seeing other individual/schools perspectives of the art and the technical articles are quite interesting. Of course being of being taught from one school of wing chun and doing it for 5 years I’m not sure if I can judge a technical article very well. I noticed Sam Kwok is being interviewed in Issue 3. Have to admit tho (after reading issue 2 as well since I lasted posted a msg on this) that the one-on-one sifu interviews lack some depth in a few of the questions. Will have to see how Sam Kwok’s one turns out.

The app itself is works best on the ipad. I have got it on my iphone (probably to do with the fact it is only a 2nd gen) and its quite slow. Although it adds interactivity to the app compared to the paper vesion for examplel some of the pics link to youtube vids.

Welcome to the network – I’m based down in London

hey dan , im down london maybe once a month , ill try to hook up next time im down

Ok cool, that’s my club → http://putneymartialarts.co.uk/

Hi. How long have you been training in wing chun? I’m based in bradford so may be possible.

hi sajid , are you the same sajeed that sometimes chi sao s with ged

7 years or there abouts ,how about you , when is the best time for you ?

Yes i am. I hvaen’t heard from him in a while. I’ll let you know in a few weeks if it’s possible to hook up for chi sau because I’m starting a new job next week and won’t be back until later in the evenings say around 18.30. Will have to see how it goes.

we train at 8 so any night is good then , or the weekends if you prefer, ged said you were very different to how we chi sao itll be good to compare notes on our differences in a friendly exchange , what is your lineage ?

Ip Man now but Ip Chun before.

do you lean back in your stance as yip man does in the demos on youtube?